QUERY: Item drop on Death

Hi All

Just curious as to peoples feel in regards to Item drop on death. I am looking at implementing the following;
Items equiped in the left and right hand, and on the head are dropped at time of death. Money will still drop of course.
Respawn point will be back at a safe point, ie the crypt and no longer give players the options to respawn at the body.

The intent is to recreate the sense of rescue for players, where they need to return to their bodies and recover their items. Often the item may be mundane, but if you drop your 5+ Sword of Arse Tearing, you may want to go and get it back. Money I have noted is dropped and a lot of people just shrug and move on, cause money aquisition is relatively easy.

Thoughts appreciated

Spor

I like punishments for dying. If there is no penalty, then you just don't care. And i think it is more likely to encourage players to party up, especially if they are going somewhere challenging.

Items dropping makes far more sense than losing gold. Not like every mindless creature or animal that might slay an adventurer is then going to snatch their purse for good measure Items in hands and on head is a fair call I'd say.

Bit to easy to abuse - stop off when your in town and pick up a cheap dagger and a woolly cap - then quick slot them. If you can see you're going to die, hit the quick slots to swap them in so you drop them instead of your helm of splendor and your +5 sword of ass tearing. Then organize someone else to go rescue your coins if you care (Hmmm. Can you put your coins in a bag and carry that?).

Even dropping everything they are carrying won't be good enough - honest players won't be able to get back to where they died, dishonest ones will just unequip everything except their armor when they expect to die - and then put on their spare suit of armor to go back for the first one.

Forcing respawn back to a safe area sounds good.

Failing that, some sort of stat or level penalty that'll wear off after a few days seems fairer (harder to evade) - perhaps with a restoration item or the like dropped where you died so you can cancel the penalty if you can get it back.

Enforcing the CON limit on respawns, raises and ressurection could help as well - although it might make players a bit to cautious. (count number of respawns, if > CON, then your perma dead). Might need to use a multiple of CON.

Dying right before a server reset can be a bit painful though .

Not a big fan of death penalties in general that make you go backwards - prefer the ones that just stop you going forward (like the time to level check on Mysty, preventing you gaining more levels without losing a level, or losing your gold to buy some new upgrade). Probably more of an issue for the people who advance more slowly than others though. While gold is something that can be reacquired - such as a customised DM item like Ronin's Torm greatsword. True that it makes people fear death more but when for Mysty, it just meant I never went near certain places as the risk was too high to be able to get things back with missing gear (or stay in town grass sitting instead). Also true that it encourages partying but then it means if you can't find a party, you probably won't stay on as it is too dangerous (or if you do die somewhere, you might not be able to find anyone to help you get your things back).

In the end, the pros might still outweigh the cons and it may promote more campaign style group adventuring so that someeone else might have your back so in the end it depends on whether it acts more as a carrot to organise groups or a stick to not go online if you can't find a group (or to certain high level risky areas).

One thing I do like is creating more emphasis on getting players raised/resurrected rather than just respawning back where you started but with lack of playing clerics and abundance of raise scrolls then it still is something that is either unavailable or for high UMD PCs, just a minor inconvenience.

P.S. As you can tell I'm in the play safe, not hard category so my views are very heavily weighted to one extreme - I hate going backwards .

What I prefer on death.

Percentage of gold lost (allows for possible theoritical banking and hidden stashes of gold in a RP environment that doesnt actually offer banking and stashes)

Death penalties. Love/Hate them as a player, but more for the inconveniance and the panic on losing possible nice gear when zoned into WoW mode kill loot. But really, in a RP environment, it doesnt make sense for me that you wake up with no injuries after getting your arse kicked. So I would call for death penalties and old school CON losses/saves.

Random loss of gear from equipped and unequipped allows for looting, losing, breaking etc.

Also. I think I would prefer to see the respawn point actually in a temple and localised to nearest town. This emulates the chances of your body being discovered or recovered by friends and is more conducive to RP... rather than waking up in the crypt, which is altogether too creepy.

In the case of accidental deaths through server crashes, PC crashes. etc. Its a small enough player base that I would expect as DMs and Server admin we can accomodate for loss. Prolonged use of 'my internet dropped out' will only go so far though.

Love the idea in general however figured Spor may of got that idea when I said we might have to increase them as there'd be no fear of death at all with the new XP system.

As a player, I personally love them, they tend to help me connect with my char more such as wanting to avoid death or actually fearing death.

I agree with Myk completely and especially on the CON decrease - restore item (would have to make sure normal restores don't remove it though).

As for losing equipment that was given out such as Ronin's sword to a death followed by reset, I'm sure you could inquire with a DM (Likely best the one that done the givng) about such athing if it is of great importance to the character or progression of something and not simply because it's "UBER". I'm sure after giving the DM a full run down of how things played out + some time to check if anyone else has nicked it they would be willing to run some form of player led event to retreive such a thing.

Jimmy.

I remember the stat decrease from death period on Mysty being one of the most hated things ever. I think Ogermage won the PW record by ending up with -17 strength (I think he and I were competing for it ).

I think in the end it's down to fun vs realism. Really, you're going to be laid up in bed for a month after a near death experience. But sitting on your ass in town because it's too dangerous to go out because of your penalties just makes you log off and not play at all.

UPDATE: Been sick in bed all last week but.... this week some more updates.

Ok, I like the idea of stat loss on death but after experiencing it on Mystara and seeing what it did to the player community, I will not be implementing it. I am going to implement the drop item in hands/head on death as that is more closely aligned with what would happen on death with a player. Gold will still drop though only a percentage, which is to be determined. Death penalty on XP will be applied on return to death temple.

Players will also respawn to a safe death spot and will not get the option of returning to their body via the conversations.

Drivers for changes are;
1. Allows for more rescue the important item style game play, party style
2. Introduces an element of risk where items may be dropped and hard to retireve if solo
3. Death temple/respawn removes the cycle of players dying and taking an xp hit to jump back to body.
4. In events and multiple kills players will be all spawning at a single location and can discuss tactics etc, much like Mystara/COT events where many died and returned from one point.

Cheers

Spor

I liked the stat loss system too, it was very in character. [I'm currently playing a Chaos team in Bloodbowl so I emphasize- (no... wait, empathise isn't the word. perhaps 'acknowledge'?) my opponent's stat loss injuries to his beloved Wood elves.]

The Mystara stat-loss system wasn't at fault, the whole damn system was at fault. I couldn't survive on that god cursed server in the best of health, so penalties weren't a lot of fun. I remember enjoying another server not so gung ho, it let me play death or injuries however I wanted to. Too vast a distance between the min-maxed loot heavy PC and the religious RPer, sadly. I think that's why I like low levels, every axe blow is potentially the great equaliser.

I've been exploring the death concept for a while, and always wanted to implement something like an entire other world. One server had a myst covered maze you would spawn to, which was brilliant the first time, but PCs just raced back the second so it was more of a time-out box. I really wished it had had NPCs wandering throughout it, (perhaps even notable retired Players' chars would be a nice touch?), and also very weak shadows who could spawn, moan about their plight, and suck away a point of Charisma. Genius, I know. Not only does Charisma mean that epic heroes can return from the dead as with Greek legend, but it totally fucking penalises the powergamer who is a veritable meat grinder in the material world, and just as interesting to talk to (obviously Sorcerors use another stat, Wisdom?). The higher up in level the PC is the further back in the Dead World they would spawn, meaning many more groping shadows between you and the portal of light back to Life. If you make it back without losing all Charisma it is restored to maximum, if not... you're changed into a pathetic shadow and confined to play out your days in the Deadworld. [You could leave it there, or have a system where it was possible, at great expense or effort, to bring back a shadow PC to life. But then that probably just benefits the powergamer again.] Yes, it's a permadeath system (!), but it wouldn't be too militant; basically it would act as a way to retire max-level PCs and keep the server at an appropriate power level. Oh yes, and there would be portals in the temples and wizards tower for peering into the dead world, so dead players (or shadow PCs) could meet face to face, although separated by a shimmering barrier (just requires a transition). Good RP opportunities.

The deadworld would ideally be large enough to explore on its own, even adventure in. It could very well be one half of the entire server, and I think one server did something like this although I never got to check it out. / Admittedly, the problem with this system is that PC Death splits up adventuring parties; but it's only really a problem if one PC dies. As soon as a few die it just means two smaller groups press on. A well designed server would have this universe in mind, therefore actual STRATEGY would count on PCs achieving objectives in the Dark world (such as destroying an altar, killing an enemy, pouring virgin blood) and having an effect in the Light world. Opportunities too cool to put into print.

In a mod I'm slowly writing my dead world is on the dark side of the moon. I'm truly skeptical that NASA was forthright with us, and remain convinced that's where zombies bit Neil Armstrong while Buzz screamed silently in a vacuum.

This idea, needs to happen! That is all that really needs to be said. Aside from the massive scripting that would need to be done, to make it work right, would be a wonderful addition to dying and make death feared even more, but not overly penalize the roleplayers(we are not stupid enough to travel alone...much)

Personally i hate the idea. Im all for partying up for saftey in numbers ect but in all honesty the server population does not allow for this alot of the time it also forces players to potentially party up with players they would normally not interact with in game simply to avoid loosing the weapons they worked hard to get. Im all for death penalties but if i wanted to run back and forth after i die looking to recover gear ive saved or worked for ill go play diablo. Perhaps a temporary stat decrease and some time "recovring" is the way to go but that means that if your character dies mid adventure you might as well log off for the night because if youve been killed by the creatures your facing at full stat and health then youve got little to no chance of not dying again if penalised. ive played on servers where death is an rp issue there is a temporary stat decrease and your character looses any memory of the past day as the trauma of near death forces them to reflect a little. i think if a character has worked hard for thier weapons and equiptment they should not be penalised by loosing them if they fall in battle.

Ahhh the comments come in...

Stat loss, weapon drop, do nothing all have negatives and positives. I will not make some happy nor others but I have been trying to add a little more risk to the world in a believeable manner. Stat loss on death is relatively simple to apply, as well as a fugue plan, lots aroudn to choose from though they are limitied.

Baron you mentioned a ghost world, this was run by Sigil and Amar as an event ages ago, and rebuilt mystara using ghost hak files, damn clever but a large download to make it a reality. had a ball mind you.

John, yes you could go elsewhere and numbers are low but in honesty I am not stressed if players leave or not. What I am doing is working on the world and applying thoughts that have been with me for ages. Due to being involved as a scripter, builder, DM on multiple worlds I have experienced what happens when you apply some harsh penalties, Mystara's application was flawed as pointed out by Baron and applied many penalties at once, hurting people over and over.

Note loss of items and death penalties are now offset by a greater XP reward and more equitable application of it across levels, gold reduction also offsets this



Aeon is slowly dying from lack of players but I am not going to knee jerk and fall overmyself to deliver what players what at cost of my own integrity and world integrity to keep a few around. Seen this done elsewhere and it is a case of the "Fonz jumping over the sharks". Look up the reference if you don't know what I mean.


At this stage I am still open to input but input has only been offered once I said I was going to implement. Note I am working on a deity system, so there is more than enough time to thrash this to death.

Spor

I myself don't care too much about gear loss, but the thing is, I don't think Its needed... .Sure a bit of con loss for a short time, fine, gold dropping, even all of it, is fine.. but item dropping, I never liked.

No offence, but It appears you are trying to combat power gaming, of which doesn't currently exist on the server, as I like to think everyone on this server is rather trustworthy and mature and is here to RP and not just run about kill level up, get gear, rinse repeat, and most importantly to have fun.

loosing items, will just cause players to not play their character as their personality would dictate, and play more like someone who is playing a video game, If I make a warrior, who will travel with people to help them, even if they go somewhere dangerous, that would likely lead to death, they will still go. As a player, knowing full well, my character will loose some of their gear that lets them able to survive, they would probably decline, which is an OOC decision, because they would have spent a great deal of personal time collecting that gear just to be useful (im talking a character like a fighter or rogue who is fully gear Dependant) then again, a class like a mage/cleric/druid/paladin, doens't have as much to loose from item loss, as a cleric, you just buy a set of basic full plate, a sword and a shield, enchance it, and your combat effective. mages are like paper anyway, their spells are what makes them effective, and gear just upgrades them... the list goes on.. pretty much, your penalizing classes that require gear... and that is all. We all like to play our characters, but we also like to have fun, If someone were to play a warrior, and had to spend all their spare time trying to recoup their items being lost from a failed expedition, then, I don't find that fun.

A con loss affects all classes, not equally, as warriors will always have more constitution to compensate, but it still works as a deterrent and you can rp feeling weak after the experience.

Just as an example, as a cleric on mystara, I never feared death as a player, sure, the xp loss was painful, but the item loss never bothered me one bit, as with a cleric, I could just gather a bit of gold, purchase some basic equipment, and just magic vestment it, and gmw it, and Id still be mostly combat effective. now a warrior, who lost their warhammer +5 and all their gold, they cant go back and fight whatever killed them if they died to it using their best equipment, and given the current availability of parties on Aeon currently a party is a very rare opportunity.

I would have to say, yes to a short period of con loss (say 15 minutes) and loss of all gold. BUT no to Item loss.

Cheers

Jamoise

Hmm *nods* temporary core stat loss applied at re-entry to world in preference if item drop. What about slowign down characters to 50% speed as well for the 15mins?

Note I do listen to you guys and I do take it all in, well as much as possible.

I am fine with slowing them down as well, along with the stat loss, so long as said stat loss is effective. Item drop is frowned upon, that is well spoken now. Mainly because it is so hard to get the things a character has and takes time investment and a lot of gold or luck of a drop. Stat loss for fifteen minutes and a slow effect(simulating that the body is injured,sore, bandaged, stitched, just raised, whatever you want) is a very good thing and prevents players from rushing back stupidly to try and get their gold.

If item drop gets implemented for players, then it will also need to be implemented with all monsters, to provide an easier chance of a player recovering from that loss. A character can go out, strangle a weak creature with his bare hands and take his weapon and armour if he wishes, because he was wearing it. Cannot remember the exact Mystara quote so forgive me "If they use it, they will drop it" Basically means that any weapon or armour or item that a creature may have used will drop on death. Ranged weapon goblin? Drops a bow and a small stack of arrows, say 20 or whatever he had left. Melee creature, will drop his armour and weapon or shield if he had one.

To summarize

(If item drop is implemented, all items on creatures would also need to drop and stat loss and movement impairing effects are supported by me, so long as they do not harshly penalize the players)

Spor i certainly wouldnt be looking to go anywhere else aeon is a world ive enjoyed for a very long time, what i was saying is that i dont think gear loss is needed, stat drops and the 15min slowed period i think are great ideas, but with the cost of magical equiptment being what it is on aeon i think youd be unfairly handicapping equiptment dependent classes and its not like they can just wander off and buy a new magical axe either, i think youll just end up with a bunch of characters who have spare sets of weapons and as was mentioned earlier theyl just swap em out if it looks like death is near. im a huge fan of a growing world and ive been a strong supporter of this world since is beginings and if i may add here i was playing on this server when almost all others had decided to go elsewhere, so im very commited to seeing it grow and change. But you asked for our feed back so here it is.

i think there are many ways to combat the lack of fear of death on a server and some of it has to come down to players acting responsibly and as jam has mentioned the vast majority who play here do in fact play out death scenarios if thier character is killed, many's the time haegen has rp'd carrying the body of a fallen comrade back to churches across aeon and almost without excption the player who died took time to rest recouperate and played a brief recovery time out as part of the adventure. My personal policy is that if one of my characters dies i will log out with that character and simply play the other, assuming that the first to fall has wandered off to find somwhere to recouperate.
i know not everyone does this and its not always possible but its my rule of thumb.

Im not asking for everyone to be made happy on the server because thats near impossible but i think should this come into effect youll see a strong jump away from any class that needs thier equiptment to survive, that or youll begin to see powerbuilt multiclass characters. I have a strong opinion on this particular issue here because i do tend to play alot of fighter based characters and for me it would come down to playing in character (wich i love) or simply changing classes so the death penalties mean next to nothing (wich id hate.) A babarian\cleric for example would shrug off the death penalties , buy a cheap axe enchant the crap out of it , rage and move on with little or no regard for the penalties or any rp work that would go along with it.
also i can see issues cropping up with weapons of significance (ronins blade for exqample,) should a character loose that weapon they would obviously be inclined to retrieve it resulting in a nice quest but waht happens if there is a reset? or the server crashes? a DM can quite easily set up an event to recover the blade and all would be well that is if a DM can be found to run the quest as we all know DM's are just as busy as the rest of us and may not have time to set up such and adventure. does that Character just resign themselves to having lost an item that they may have done months of rp to achieve? please dont take these questions as accusations or shite stirring but as genuine concerns .

thanks .

Like others, ive always hated the lose stuff on death, but accept that how else are you going to make death 'scary'. Came up with an idea through some 'free form' thinking. Don't know how doable this would be, or even if anyone would like it. But something like DM administered penalties. In a nutshell, rather then having it automated, have a death alert system, maybe keep the current minor xp losses but then also, the Dm gets a message to catch up to the character. Something like the grim reaper chasing after you and when he catches up, you have to 'pay' the toll. Could be a quest, or the reaper (DM rolls a dice) decides to suck some life out of you (BIG xp hit) take some nice and shiny item, or whatever. Maybe even a .5% chance of perma, the reaper says, 'nah, your coming with me lol'. Anyhow, just some food for thought. When you respawn, you get a message, "you have cheated death, he will come to extract his toll" ..or something.

Havent been on alot lately, RL, but enjoy the event nights greatly

Mr Damage wrote:

Like others, ive always hated the lose stuff on death, but accept that how else are you going to make death 'scary'. Came up with an idea through some 'free form' thinking. Don't know how doable this would be, or even if anyone would like it. But something like DM administered penalties. In a nutshell, rather then having it automated, have a death alert system, maybe keep the current minor xp losses but then also, the Dm gets a message to catch up to the character. Something like the grim reaper chasing after you and when he catches up, you have to 'pay' the toll. Could be a quest, or the reaper (DM rolls a dice) decides to suck some life out of you (BIG xp hit) take some nice and shiny item, or whatever. Maybe even a .5% chance of perma, the reaper says, 'nah, your coming with me lol'. Anyhow, just some food for thought. When you respawn, you get a message, "you have cheated death, he will come to extract his toll" ..or something.

Havent been on alot lately, RL, but enjoy the event nights greatly

All I have have to say is, Poor charity